bess.bigwhoop.org

Could you post the article? When I try to look at it, it makes me register for their site, which I started to do until they wanted me to fill out like 30 fields.

Trent, I've got the article mirrored on my site. Find the link here...

http://jankowski.bigwhoop.org/archives/2005/02/14/basket

Happy Vale....oh, forget it.

Coming from a complete stranger, I learned quite a bit the last few minutes. Thanks to all contributors for the humanity lessons and be good to one another.

I'm going to go ogle myself now.

How have your parents reacted to this?
I must say that the manner in which you and the other bigwhoop folks are dealing with this issue is very mature and level-headed after being slandered for all in New-York's Hudson Valley and the Catskills to read. While others in Goshen could probably figure out who "Mary" and "Joe" are, and then be able to form an option of you one way or another, many others can only take the story at face value.
Maybe some will care enough to take the quoted pieces of "evidence" and google them to find the pages and hopefully stumble upon your reactions. However, the vast majority will not. There are people in Minisink that have no idea who any of the people involved are but will now have mental association between Goshen and anti-semitism. I feel as if it is not only unfair to those mentioned in the article and their famillies that still live in Goshen, but to all of the people of Goshen who were not given the opportunity to share their side of the story.

I see you've apologized to the offended, but Furst seems to have only alluded to a future apology. There's a bit too much activity on his website at the moment to approach him about it. Don't you think he should at least apologize, regardless of what his and your family may be experiencing? I have a few reasons why I think he should, but none of the non-crazy or at least non-Goshen people seem to be calling for it . . .

No, I don't think that he should apologize, since he's not in the wrong. I don't really think that I'm in the wrong, either -- to the degree that the accusations would have you believe -- but I did apologize for the misconceptions stemming from what I wrote, as I am sorry for whatever hurt that may have caused.

Nothing erases the fact that our families have to take the brunt of this. I'm safely tucked away in NYC, but yet my entire family will get looked at funny when they're standing in line at the Goshen friggin' supermarket now.

I would never want anyone to apologize to me unless they absolutely meant it, and my guess is that Hanna & Becca are of the same sentiment.

Bess, as someone coming from the Christian faith tradition, I appreciated your apology to H*****. I felt it was genuine and authentic, and truly reveals a miscommunication and misunderstanding between the two of you.

On the other hand, I viewed Eric's commentary as somewhat insensitive and lacking in depth. While not consciously intending his remarks to be viewed as antisemitic, he seems to lack an understanding of how they could easily be so construed. He attributes them to humor. Well, I hate to tell him this, but some racial humor can both be funny and racist. Some comments are just inappropriate - regardless of what attitude underlies them, and I believe he has stepped into that type of minefield. No, he doesn't hate Jews. He meant no harm, yet offense was taken. From my perspective, the mature act would be to apologize and clarify - and then to be quiet and avoid making such clueless remarks in the future. His focusing on H's alleged thin skin does not help his cause one iota.

I'm missing the time frame here, does the apology on there now not count, or have a somehow lost track of time? I can change the tense if it helps...

I posted my comment right before you posted your apology. So yes, that one counts, though I still think it could be a little more empathetic.

Btw, Tara, I love how you just casually referred to Minisink.

Really, do we care what Minisink thinks? For the life of me, I can't figure out where the heck that place even is.

Yes, Jim, he meant no harm and offense was taken, but offense was never expressed.

See, my problem with this is the suggestion that people should avoid certain TOPICs because of this sort of thing. We do not need a thought police. Part of why I love this group so much is that there is so little that is taboo, and yet, there's a fundamental respect that underlies every conversation. If anyone went back through the posts and comments on these whoop sites, they'd find lots of rather heated arguments, some very ascerbic comments, even some personal attacks, and whenEVER it's necessary, enough genuine apology that the same people keep showing up to do it again.

I think it's ridiculous that some jerk, and it didn't have to be Hanna Ingber, it could have been anyone acting like a jerk, from outside the conversation could come into it and take offense at it, and WITHOUT EXPRESSING that in the way we do with each other (or any other way, for that matter), then run off and use the free exchange of ideas that we share here to besmirch individuals in particular and an entire community in general.

It's just spurious sensitivity. I don't believe her any more. I think it's pretty clear now that good Hanna, for she really does appear to be a good girl, had an ulterior motive and exploited the situation. That doesn't take away all her good works, but it just shows that she's not as mature or as authentic as we might want to think.

I like my Whoop the way it is. I don't think we should have to seal it off from the participation of other people of good will in order to protect ourselves and our families from baseless calumnies. I didn't know ANY of these people a year ago, and this is a regular and treasured part of my day now. That is one benefit the internet has offered. And if anyone doesn't like what we say, they can say so in an honest and forthright way. If they need a little time to think about it, that's okay too. Many issues are dropped and revisited.

But to wait four months and then ambush somebody's parents over their Sunday coffee is dirty pool. There's no justification for it.

I feel like if you kept driving West past Port Jervis you might end up in Minisink.

I think that their soccer team was better than it should have been, given the size of the town. Am I wrong here?

Great link for Minisink soccer here:
http://www.sc-democrat.com/archives/2002/sports/09September/13/monti.htm

In regards to towns and the sizes of them, that is irrelevant. Little towns can make some noise as we have seen lately...

Actually, I think Minisink is on the way TO Port Jervis, on the other side o' Middletown a ways.

But yeah, given that the Minisink School District is Goshen's chief rival (or, last time I checked it was, anyway), this whole anti-semitism thing pretty much puts them in the lead, in terms of people moving upstate from the city trying to decide where to raise their kids.

I suppose that's not such a bad thing in a sense, since Goshen's becoming too overpopulated anyway. Reckon there's a lot more land out yonder in Minisink.

It's amusing that I picked a upper Hudson Valley town at random, which happened to be the rival to Goshen. I just liked the name "Minisink" which I assumed is pronouned mi-nis-ink not mini-sink.

I love it when people react to the Indian-derived names (and by "Indian" here, I mean "Native American", just in case anyone's planning on writing a letter to the editor about how politically correct I'm not) of places in the Hudson Valley / Catskills. I grew up hearing the names all the time, so I've never really thought about how silly they might sound to an outsider (and by "outsider" here, I mean "Jersey Girl", and by "Jersey Girl", I mean "Tara" -- just in case there are any other Jersey Girls lurking around, waiting to claim in print that I think everybody from New Jersey is an outsider).

Whenever I'm on the train going upstate, it never fails: there's always a little kid who imitates the conductor's voice saying "Mahwah", over and over again, uncontrollably giggling, for at least several stops after. "Mah wah! Mahhh-wahhh!"

Don't get me started on HoHoKus.

If this entire thing was a nicely veiled plot by Ms. Ingber to drive the influx of city-to-suburb flockers to Minisink in an effort to keep Goshen's growth in check ... then it is absolutely BRILLIANT, she just should have let us know beforehand!

To any potential hudson valley residents: Minisink is apparently way less anti-semitic than Goshen, but they might hate people who settled here via land bridge rather than via religius exile.

Matt, is joking the way to address all of this?

I think the entire thing is getting a bit ridiculous at this point. Ive been waiting 3 days for the time to arrive when I can start making jokes about the ridiculousness of Hanna's claims. Has that time arrived?

Lara, since you've recently admitted to also being "thin skinned" and occasionally being targeted on these websites, I'd like to preempt my response by saying that I'm being honest here and that I see what you're saying and respect that you asked it...

Yes, I think joking is absolutely the way to address this. I joke about everything, Furst jokes about everything, Bess jokes about everything, AE jokes about everything, and all of you that interact with us on these websites joke about everything. In fact, part of the reason that I set up all of this in the first place, part of the reason that I put my time and money into maintaining in and trying to make it enjoyable for everyone - is that I want to keep what is partially a humor-driven (or at least ridiculously comical) relationship with these people alive, even if we can't be in each other's physical presence.

If there were truth in Hanna's accusations, I would not joke about it. Of course, if there were truth in her comments, I'd probably shut down all of the websites and go on living a life of embrassment, my families dinner-time chats having finally been exposed and all. Since there's not, the proper thing to do is first deal with the seriousness of the accusations (which I believe we've either done or are well on our way to doing), and then return to business as usual.

I don't plan on altering my sense of humor to cater to anyone. I don't think it's a case of being insensitive either, I think it's a case of just being ourselves.

Somewhere I read a comment by AE (I paraphrase greatly) calling attention to Ms. Ingber's privilege and desire to claim some victim status as her own. That's the impression I got, too. The whole thing seemed to me merely a narcissistic ploy for attention and a byline. I don't think Ms. Ingber was ever really in this to heal any "hurt" -- she didn't like being a punchline, she knew her arguments wouldn't hold up and so she retreated safely to her one-sided little soapbox, thereby adding some self-righteous spewing of her alleged victimhood to her wide variety of trendy social agendas.

Pathetic.

Nothing offends me more than middle-class white kids desperately searching for trauma for trauma's sake. Manufactured trauma doesn't make you a legitimate victim, it makes you a distraction from the real pain of real people who are genuinely suffering. Maybe "the real issue" of anti-semitism could have been discussed if the whole thing hadn't been so couched in catty insider bs.

And Bess, I believe your families should be ENRAGED at the implication that your dinner tables are actually covert gatherings for racists and anti-semites. How incredibly thoughtless and irresponsible of Ms. Ingber to say such things.

I am so tired of humorless hysterics.

Thanks for that Matt. As I'm picking up my laundry nearby tonight, we'll chat.

Yeah, thank God for Lenny Bruce and people being willing to find humor in sensitive things, eh? Jews would STILL be invisible in this country if he hadn't broken the Jewish/Goyish barrier...

But you know, I'm actually perfectly willing to alter, not my sense, but at least my expression of humor. For everything, there is a season (Insert Bible cite here...Ecc.??) I don't walk around cracking wise all the time. I pretty much never make cracks at Lara for instance, specifically because I know her well enough to know that she IS sensitive, but not well enough to know what would be offensive, and I like her and respect her, so I don't wish to offend her. (Plus, after we went rounds on the Middle East, I find her a formidable debater, and I also don't want to inspire her ire!)

And from what I've read by her and about her, I suspect I would have liked Hanna Ingber, too, and I would certainly have extended the same courtesy of restraint to her, had she expressed that she had been offended. And ya wanna know what's funny? I'd actually come on here the other day to apologize to Furst about my use of Xtian, specifically because he is SO thick-skinned that for him to complain about it carried some weight and it started to get to me, and I felt bad about inadvertently giving offense. But this issue sort of ate that up and I haven't got back to it.

Point is, while I get a lot of joy in finding humor and cracking wise about a great many sensitive topics because I think it takes the sting out of them, when people are willing to say they're offended or show that they don't care for my cracks, I'm willing to respect that.

Hanna did neither.

Excellent addition to what I said. I didn't mean to say that "no, there is absolutely nothing anyone could tell me that would cause me to change my opinion of what is appropriate or to re-evaluate something I'd said". Clearly, if someone pointed out they'd been hurt by something I thought was funny, pointed out why, made their case, I thought it was legit, etc. -- then I'd explain my half, agree that we'd had a miscommunication or misunderstanding, and move on.

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me why it's wrong to write a story about being madly, ridiculously, obsessively in love with Jewish boys. Is it just as wrong to love a particular religion as it is to hate it? Because I don't know if I can deprogram myself of whatever it is in me that insists on lusting after Jewish boys, any more than I can be 21 again.

I have the same problem, though I usually don't follow through. Well, now I never do. Actually, I rarely ever did. I've only dated a couple Jews. But I think they're hot. Even when I didn't want a nice Jewish boy, I thought they were hot, for boys.

I don't know why that is, though. Perhaps we're objectifying them, like white guys who want Asian women because of the stereotypes of passive little geishas. Maybe we look at them and see the stereotype of smart guys who treat women well and have a low incidence of alcoholism, domestic abuse and joblessness, and we see that as somehow appealing.

Oh, wait. It IS appealing. Hmmmm. Well, logically, then, I'd say it's probably okay to lust after Jewish guys.

Though, speaking as a Jewish mother, it's going to stress out a Jewish mother whenever you bag one, because she's going to be worried about the whole assimilation and attrition thing, which is where the American Jew is disappearing to. But I think we need better marketing on that. Since the intermarriage is happening, the Jewish side has got to get on board with helping the non-Jew partners embrace and support the continuity of Jewish culture in America.

In the case of a woman who is attracted to a Yid partly BECAUSE of his Jewishness, rather than in SPITE of it, I think there's a good bet that support -- and even grandchildren! -- would be forthcoming.

God, I love this country.

I think you could be in the wrong there too, Bess. The object of your affection could see it as objectifying based on appearance. I often find certain categories of girl attractive, and I think the only one that may be sort of bad (to at least tell the girl about) is the ethnicity one. Because then you're basing your preference not on them personally, but on something they were born with that they have no control over. I have actually felt it myself a bit in reference to these Taiwanese girls who this one fellow grad student keeps trying to hook me up with because they want to meet American boys. I haven't figured out if they just like white boys, or if it's about citizenship or money, or both. This is not generally true though because I know a guy who is dating one of these chicks, so he must have no problem with the objectification issue.

I see what you're saying, Trent, but this stems from two Jewish boys whom I -was- initially attracted to for a variety of other reasons, only to discover later on that everything I loved about them could be traced back directly to their Judaism.

Seriously, all the Jewish boys I've known (+ the two I was "involved" with) have this "live free or die" mentality... wait! sorry, that's the state motto for New Hampshire... I mean, "carpe diem" / "live life to the fullest because there ain't no heaven" mentality, and is that not a pretty standard aspect of the Jewish faith?

Um, not exactly, as such, though it's certainly possible that it is expressed that way in some people's personal expression of their Jewishness. We do believe in a heaven, though not in the angels-and-the-shining-throne kinda way.

I think what we have is more like a "live life the best you possibly can" mentality, because we're all accountable for ourselves, and we don't have a middleman to get us our redemption. I suppose some of us make express that with a rigorous adherence to a lot of rules, others with a vigorous embrace of their vital spirit.

But to tell you the truth, I feel verrrry hinky talking about what "we" think and "we" believe after all this. I just had a Yid today tell me that only the goyim call a Yid a Yid. Wow. What the hell is he, Sephardic? All I can say is that I am very happy that you had some positive experiences with some nice Jewish boys. Because if THIS was your first extended exposure to Jews, you might come away with an entirely different impression. Sigh.

Clarification on Trent's point -- I think it is quite OK and quite acceptable to be attracted or not attracted to anyone because of factors both within and outside of their immediate control. For example, all other things being equal, I'm more attracted to white women of european ancestry than I am to black women from Congo. This is out of their control - and you could even make the case that it's out of mine (genetics or culture). I don't think that's remotely racist or offensive, it's an purely aesthetic choice.

If I started fire-bombing the houses of black women from Congo, specifically because of who and what they were, then I'm probably a racist.

Bess, couldn't you find the same attitude in atheists who don't believe in an afterlife? I know quite a few, and they seem to feel the same way.

Yeah, you're probably right, Katie. In fact, the last Jewish guy I dated was technically an atheist when I dated him. He'd been raised Jewish, though, and that did shine through in his persona, regardless of whether or not he'd since renounced the faith. The atheism in him was more just a current logical response to modern-day science/logic answering the questions we used to need religion to answer -- like it is for a lot of atheists -- and to me, that all by itself is kind of boring and soulless. It was the decade or two of Judaism in him that I was drawn to -- not the spur-of-the-moment / now-that-I'm-old-enough-to-question-the-universe-atheism-seems-more-logical-from-a-scientific-perspective sentiment in him. Plus, I'm attracted to Judaism's emphasis on "family" (and a variety of other things that I'm guessing are valueless in atheism and aren't weighted nearly the same in some other religions).

Lara's website just reminded me of this...but has anyone noticed that we all come from the OC? Orange County and everything? Why haven't I used that to relate to stupid college aged girls yet?

When I meet girls from the OC in california, I tell them they need to take a trip with me to the REAL OC. It doesn't work.

Maybe if you just maintain that you're from the OC, but never elaborate, you'd have an in. Be like "yeah, it's just like in the show".